THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

jake · 2005-06-14
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/48304.htm THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- June 14, 2005 -- Mayor Bloomberg deserves credit for trying to salvage the city's Olympic dreams, which Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver torpedoed last week. But Hizzoner's bid for a new stadium in Queens raises a raft of new questions. Plan A was a stadium on the West Side, to be built by the Jets football team and used for the 2012 Olympics, should the city be chosen to host them. Silver, in concert with state Senate Majority Leader Joe Bruno, killed that worthy idea. So Mayor Mike came up with Plan B. On Sunday, he unveiled a deal for the Mets to build a stadium in Queens that could be adapted to host the Olympics. The team would pay for the facility, estimated to cost some $675 million, and the city and state would cough up $180 million for infrastructure work, planning credits and reserve funding for the Mets. Albany and City Hall would kick in another $108 million, and a private fund, NYC2012, would add $142 million more to convert the facility for the Olympics. So right at the outset, total costs for a Queens facility to host the 2012 Games would top $1.1 billion. How long before that grows close to the $2 billion West Side pricetag that Silver & Co. decried? Not long; this is New York, after all. Meanwhile, any day now City Hall is expected to announce a deal for a new Yankees stadium in The Bronx. What will that cost? And how much will come from taxpayers' pockets? There's more: Any outlays by Albany have to be doubled — because, by tradition, every dollar spent downstate is matched by another dollar spent upstate. None of which, to be sure, is cause to oppose the long-planned Mets or Yankee facilities outright. Indeed, we've always supported reasonable public investment in infrastructure. And keeping the city a viable place for its two Major League Baseball clubs certainly qualifies for that. But given the costs — and the bang for the buck, which doesn't appear anything near what it would have been on the West Side — there certainly are grounds to go slow in Queens and The Bronx. Already, critics of the West Side plan are saying, We told you a stadium for the Olympics can be built in Queens. But the Manhattan facility was to double as a convention site and work in conjunction with an expanded Javits Center — all part of a major redevelopment that would include new apartments, office space, parkland and stores. The potential for spillover construction in Queens is far from clear. Meanwhile, Silver's chief goal in opposing the Jets stadium (or so he said, anyway) was to block development in midtown Manhattan, for fear it would undermine economic activity in his district, the Downtown area. Yet Mayor Mike is vowing to do whatever it takes to spur West Side construction, even without the Jets stadium. So Silver's attempt to thwart it may well fail after all. (Kudos to Hizzoner for sticking it to the speaker, given Silver's unconscionable attitude toward the Jets plan.) As we've said, stadium projects (in Queens, The Bronx, the West Side or anywhere else) need to be judged apart from the Olympics. Oddsmakers say New York is a longshot for the Games, and anyway, it makes no sense to spend billions solely for a two-week event. The West Side plan had clear benefits besides the Games; in Queens, that remains to be seen. Until it is, New Yorkers would be wise to reserve judgment. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEW YORK POST is a registered trademark of NYP Holdings, Inc. NYPOST.COM, NYPOSTONLINE.COM, and NEWYORKPOST.COM are trademarks of NYP Holdings, Inc. Copyright 2005 NYP Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved. http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/48304.htm
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/48304.htm

jake · 2005-06-21
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

The NY Post's editorial from last week illustrates how this paper generally just prints articles for their incindiary value without any thought to their content. Most experts seem to agree that the new Mets and Yankee stadiums combined could cost less than the proposed Westside stadium even with infrastructure enhancement and the additional money required to bring the Queens stadium to Olympic standard. (Interesting how the Post uses words like 'cough up' in negative editorials when refering to the city/state/taxpayer contributions but describes the same as 'chipping in' in their pro-Westside statements). These stadiums will add much needed jobs to the boroughs just as a Jet stadium would. Its time to realize that the outer boroughs (especially the area around Willets Pt) are rapidly growing and are also ripe for investment. New York City is not just Manhattan. Ours is a small city in terms of actual physical size. The 'remote swamp' that kingofqueens refers to in comparing it to the Meadowlands is hardly that at all. If the Jets are unable to secure the Hudson Yards this week, I am hoping that they can think out of the box (Manhattan) and reconsider an investment in Queens, returning the Jets to their true home. The 'bang for the buck' in Jersey still pales in comparison to building in Queens. Building outside of the city is just shortsighted and Queens is very a part of New York. The only thing the Post editorial I can agree with is that stadium projects must be judged apart from the Olympics. Our Mayor seemed willing to tie the two together when pushing for the Westside stadium and although the Post says one thing they still put Olympic costs together with stadium costs at the beginning of this editorial. MK

jake · 2005-06-21
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

The NY Post's editorial from last week illustrates how this paper generally just prints articles for their incindiary value without any thought to their content. Most experts seem to agree that the new Mets and Yankee stadiums combined could cost less than the proposed Westside stadium even with infrastructure enhancement and the additional money required to bring the Queens stadium to Olympic standard. (Interesting how the Post uses words like 'cough up' in negative editorials when refering to the city/state/taxpayer contributions but describes the same as 'chipping in' in their pro-Westside statements). These stadiums will add much needed jobs to the boroughs just as a Jet stadium would. Its time to realize that the outer boroughs (especially the area around Willets Pt) are rapidly growing and are also ripe for investment. New York City is not just Manhattan. Ours is a small city in terms of actual physical size. The 'remote swamp' that kingofqueens refers to in comparing it to the Meadowlands is hardly that at all. If the Jets are unable to secure the Hudson Yards this week, I am hoping that they can think out of the box (Manhattan) and reconsider an investment in Queens, returning the Jets to their true home. The 'bang for the buck' in Jersey still pales in comparison to building in Queens. Building outside of the city is just shortsighted and Queens is very a part of New York. The only thing the Post editorial I can agree with is that stadium projects must be judged apart from the Olympics. Our Mayor seemed willing to tie the two together when pushing for the Westside stadium and although the Post says one thing they still put Olympic costs together with stadium costs at the beginning of this editorial. MK

jake · 2005-06-21
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

[quote]Originally posted by mikekiriakou on Jun 21, 2005 3:59 am GMT-5: The NY Post's editorial from last week illustrates how this paper generally just prints articles for their incindiary value without any thought to their content. Most experts seem to agree that the new Mets and Yankee stadiums combined could cost less than the proposed Westside stadium even with infrastructure enhancement and the additional money required to bring the Queens stadium to Olympic standard. (Interesting how the Post uses words like 'cough up' in negative editorials when refering to the city/state/taxpayer contributions but describes the same as 'chipping in' in their pro-Westside statements). These stadiums will add much needed jobs to the boroughs just as a Jet stadium would. Its time to realize that the outer boroughs (especially the area around Willets Pt) are rapidly growing and are also ripe for investment. New York City is not just Manhattan. Ours is a small city in terms of actual physical size. The 'remote swamp' that kingofqueens refers to in comparing it to the Meadowlands is hardly that at all. If the Jets are unable to secure the Hudson Yards this week, I am hoping that they can think out of the box (Manhattan) and reconsider an investment in Queens, returning the Jets to their true home. The 'bang for the buck' in Jersey still pales in comparison to building in Queens. Building outside of the city is just shortsighted and Queens is very a part of New York. The only thing the Post editorial I can agree with is that stadium projects must be judged apart from the Olympics. Our Mayor seemed willing to tie the two together when pushing for the Westside stadium and although the Post says one thing they still put Olympic costs together with stadium costs at the beginning of this editorial. MK [/quote] While I agree about the Post, the net new jobs of a Stadium in Queens vs a stadium on the West Side is not even close. A queens stadium would only produce jobs for the 10 times a year football events, the WSS could support that, plus concerts, conventions and other sporting events. Also, if you have gone over the plans you would see that the WSS is full of shops, bars and restaurants that would be open 365 days a year something a Jets stadium in Queens could never support. In the end, it is about real estate and even though I live in Queens I know the value of land in NYC is 2-3 greater than Queens. That trend will not stop in the 30 years. Jake

jake · 2005-06-21
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

jake, Hiya doin' guy ! Thanks for your reply. You're absolutely right, land values in Manhattan will always be higher simply because available land will always be scarce. That is just the physical characteristic of the island. But we're not just talking about land values, are we?? Now that a new Met stadium will be erected next to Shea, the Willets Pt. site will be developed. It will also include shops, bars, restaurants and hotels that will provide jobs. These institutions will be supported by a rapidly growing neighboring community (Flushing and Corona) and by 30-40,000 a night during the baseball season and US Open tournament (at Arthur Ashe). That's 81 games (hopefully more if the Met can get back to the post-season), day and night tennis in August and all other events in and around these stadiums (including Flushing Meadow Park - e.g. 70,000 expected this weekend for Billy Graham). There is so much upside to this area that we seem to be overlooking and its right here in the city under our noses. The Westside will be OK. The Javits Center will be 'jumbo-ized' to accomodate larger conventions and the area will be developed with plenty of jobs for all. My point is that the Jets could use the site in Queens which is better suited for a stadium at a fraction of the cost (relative to the Westside) and be a part of a burgeoning renaissance in New York's outer boroughs. It doesn't only have to happen on the Westside (and definitely not back in Jersey). There's plenty of room to accomodate our team in Queens. I hope they have the wisdom to see its possibilities. Let's throw NFL and college football games (yeah maybe a Super Bowl), soccer and other sports (maybe an Olympics somewhere along the way) into the mix. It could all happen now and everyone would be onboard this time. How 'bout the Jets ?? (Jake, you should come visit, spend some time and see what you think. Bring Woody with you !!) MK

jake · 2005-06-21
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

I gues where we are missing is that Woody does not just want a football stadium. To be honest, if he just wanted a stadium, NJ is the best choice. Nobody has to be moved, he can share the cost and call it a day. The point is he wants something that has other income potential AND at the same time something that is special in terms of location. In Queens, those shops and restaurants are going to have a tough time, they are going to have to disrupt tons of local businesses and in the end all you get is a stadium. Put it on the West Side and you are going to get what you paid for. It will be a showcase of the NFL in the heart of the greatest city in the world. It will become an attraction and site to be seen. Jake

jake · 2005-06-23
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

jake, You're right, Mr.Johnson doesn't want just a stadium. I believe the whole reason for pushing the Westside stadium as hard as the Jets did was to A) take advantage of a ground floor real estate purchase (they would have secured this property for a literal steal @ either $100 or 250 mill, had Bloomberg/Doctoroff been able to circumvent the entire legislative process) on one of New York's most valuable tracts in Manhattan's 'final frontier'. B) relocated the franchise back in New York and thereby placing some distance between themselves and the Giants to whom we have been playing 2nd fiddle to since Joe Willie was slinging passes at Shea. The Jets need to recapture their own identity, getting away from the Meadowlands is step #1. Before the Jets come crawling back to Jersey to share a stadium with the Giants and perpetuate their status as Big Blue's stepchild, they will exhaust every last option to still landing a deal with the MTA for the Hudson Yards (with or without the Mayor's help). If and when all hope is dashed there, they should do the prudent thing and really take a hard look at Queens and all its possibilities. Jake, any business that is part of a new development in Queens will prosper. You said it yourself, your not from Queens, trust me on this - the local businesses will thrive if you build a football/baseball complex with all the trimmings on a sparkling, new-look Queens waterfront. The existing businesses in Flushing are close enough to receive spilloff benefits from the complex but are far away enough (they're separated by a physical boundary - Flushing Bay/Flushing Meadow Park) not to be in direct conflict with the business that actually sprout in the stadium's immediate vicinty. You'd be disrupting tons more local businesses on the Westside. Outside of a few auto body shops, Queens would welcome the Jets, you certainly can't say the same in Chelsea or Clinton (Hell's Kitchen). Let's face it, the Queens study the Jets had done for them by Tishman Construction was skewed and errored to put it mildly. For example, we know for sure a stadium can be built there without sinking into a swamp and without having to acquire private property. A 2nd study here is warranted. If you really believe, as I do, that the Mr.Johnson is looking for more than a stadium and one that he doesn't have to share with a rival - you better be praying that a long-shot comes in and he's still builds on the Westside or that they build in Queens because that's the best we have to offer. I was only a youngster when a very similiar scenario was presented to the Brooklyn Dodgers. They couldn't get their plan for a new Ebbets Field past Mr.Robert Moses and Southern California (LA) just happened to be ripe for a team and offered Mr.O'Malley more than just a stadium. Last time I looked the Rams haven't moved back West and real estate is running pretty hot out there as well. But the Jets have assured us that it is all about our team, the fans and New York. Hey, Sheldon Silver doesn't even look like Robert Moses.. Jake, I can't put Willets Pt. in Manhattan but it would be nice to have the Jets acknowledge that Queens is a real option with real potential. No Westside ?? - Build your 'showcase' in Queens in the greatest city in the world.

jake · 2005-06-23
THE PROBLEM WITH PLAN B

[quote]Originally posted by mikekiriakou on Jun 22, 2005 10:12 pm GMT-5: You said it yourself, your not from Queens, trust me on this - the local businesses will thrive if you build a football/baseball complex with all the trimmings on a sparkling, new-look Queens waterfront. [/quote] Wait a second, actually I am from Queens. I have been living in Queens for almost 10 years and have owned in Queens for 7 years. What I do know is that with every new development in Queens, there is also a community aspect and someone is going to feel the brunt of the change. There are businesses there that would have to be closed, not help to thrive. I agree that if it is not the West Side, Queens is the second best option but only because there is better transportation there and it is going to keep the money coming to NYC. All the NJ fans would not be so happy. :) Jake